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Short Thoughts on Helping Others Understand the Doctrine of the Trinity

The doctrine of the Trinity is not an easy doctrine to grasp.  For one, we are limited as human beings to understand God.  His ways are beyond our ways and His thoughts are beyond our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).  God has made Himself known to us in His Word but even there we are limited in what we know about God.  We know enough about God to fear Him and to be saved by His grace (John 17:3) but we are still limited in what we know about God.

This should not cause fear nor doubts to arise.  If you can figure out your God, He is not the true and living God who has revealed Himself to us by His Word.  The true and living God is simply a mystery to us.  He is not a man (Numbers 23:19) nor has He ever been a man (Isaiah 43:10).  God has always been God and will always be God.  God never changes (James 1:17).  God remains the same and His years will never end (Psalm 102:27).  The immutability of God is a doctrine that we should rest in (Hebrews 13:8) knowing that God will keep His promises since He is forever faithful (1 Kings 8:56; Romans 4:21).

When it comes to understanding the doctrine of the Trinity, it helps to think this way: there is only one what (God) and yet there are three who’s (Divine Persons).  One God eternally existent in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Each of the divine persons is a person in that they are co-equal, co-eternal with the other members of the Triune God so that the Father is not the Son nor is He the Holy Spirit nor is the Son the Father nor is He the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father nor is He the Son.  The Father is God.  The Son is God.  The Holy Spirit is God.  Yet again, there is not three manifestations of the one true God (modalism) nor is the Father greater than the Son and the Spirit (Arianism).  Instead, the Bible teaches us that there is one God (Deuteronomy 4:35; 6:4; 32:39; 2 Samuel 7:22; 1 Chronicles 17:20; Psalm 83:18; 86:10; Isaiah 44:6; 45:18; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5).  Yet the New Testament is clear that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God yet there is only one God.

How then do we reconcile these facts?  Those who deny the Trinity run into error.  If you deny the doctrine of the Trinity, you must do something with the one true God.  You then must turn to answering who is God?  Is the Father then God and yet not the Son or the Spirit?  Or are there now three gods which means you must deny the fact that there is only one God?  Cults often attack the Lord Jesus and deny His full deity or they make Him less than the Father.  Oneness Pentecostals claim to exalt Jesus but they deny the full deity and persons of the Father and Spirit (though they would claim to embrace their deity while denying their personhood).  Most cults exalt the Father as above the Son in some way (although the Bible does teach the willful submission of the Son to the Father in His mediating role; see 1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

It is simply easier to come to the mystery of the Trinity and admit I don’t fully understand it but I accept it by faith because it is what the Bible teaches.  God is beyond me.  Again, I point to Isaiah 55:8-9.  God’s ways are not my ways.  He is God and I humble myself before Him.  I confess that there is only one God and yet three persons in the one Godhead.  I confess that the Father is not the Son nor is He the Spirit.  I confess that truth to all three persons.  There is only one God but three persons in the one Godhead.  I know not how this is nor does it completely make sense to me but it is what Scripture teaches and I humble myself before the one true and living God.

Written by The Seeking Disciple

07/10/2015 at 5:45 PM

Never Confuse Knowing Theology With Knowing Christ

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees by pointing out that they studied the Scriptures but missed Him.  John 5:39 reads, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me.”

These were men who studied the Scriptures.  They were regarded as experts in the Law of God.  Yet Jesus said that they missed God in the process.  He didn’t rebuke them for studying the Scriptures but for missing Him while doing so.

I pray that is not me.  I met a man a while back who has a deep knowledge of the Word.  He has studied at some of the finest universities in the United States and his goal in life is to teach theology and Greek at a seminary level (which he is now doing).  Yet as I talked with this man, I realized that his whole view of the Christian life was one of theology.  He looked at things through the lenses of his theology.  When I spoke with him about witnessing, he begin to talk about the various methods of evangelism and which he felt was more sound.  When I asked him about his prayer life, he looked offended and told me that prayer was between him and God and it was none of my business how much time he spent in prayer.  After all, he reasoned with me, time proves nothing.  Of course I agreed but merely wanted to know how his prayer life was.

What saddened me about this encounter was the fact that this man knew theology.  He knew much about God.  Yet in my speaking with him, I never detected a deep love for God.  He could tell me facts about the Bible and could explain to me aspects of theology but he didn’t seem to have any passion for the gospel itself.  I challenged him to come witnessing with us sometime and he just stared at me with a blank look.  I told him that we could use his intellect when we go evangelizing on college campuses but he said that he would be very busy with his theological studies and teaching.

I love theology.  I have enjoyed reading theology books for many years.  I am not on the level as this man above.  I would never say that I am an expert on theology nor do I feel qualified to teach on a seminary campus but I do love theology but I love theology because of where it leads me: to Jesus.  I want to know Jesus more and more.  I want to love Him more and more.  I have so far to go.

Paul the Apostle was a major theologian both before his conversion to Christ and afterwards.  One cannot read the book of Romans and not see that Paul was a theologian.  Yet in Philippians 3:2-11 he wrote this:

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Paul showed that in his former way of life, he was very religious indeed.  He studied under Gamaliel who was one of the leading theologians of his day (Acts 22:3).  Paul writes in Philippians 3:6 that he was blameless under the law.  Yet he considered all that loss to knowing Christ.  Paul was willing to trade his theology for knowing Christ.  And yet he was still a great theologian as his New Testament letters prove!  Paul went from loving theology to loving God.  He learned that Christ is not found in a book.  He is found in reality.

I pray that my own theological studies drive me toward Jesus, toward holiness, toward worship, toward prayer, toward evangelism.  I don’t want to have a head knowledge relationship with Christ but a true relationship with Him.  I don’t want my love for Jesus to be based just on what I know.  I want to show my love for Jesus in what I do (John 14:15).  It is easy to confuse theological knowledge with a relationship with Jesus but I want to demonstrate my love for Jesus not just in my studies but in my actual obedience to the gospel (1 John 2:3-6).

My fear is that we are educated beyond our level of obedience.  We know much about God but do little for His kingdom.  We can preach a fine sermon on prayer but do we pray?  I think of the Jews Paul rebuked in Romans 2:17-24 by pointing out their hypocrisy.  Is that me?  Do I know many facts about the gospel but don’t really love Christ from the heart?  Do I study the Word of God but fail to obey His Word in the process?  Do I study God but fail to stand in awe of Him in worship and prayer?  Can I debate a theological position but never share my faith with the lost?  How easy it is to sit in a room and open the Greek New Testament and do word studies but never leave that room to go into the world with the light of the gospel (Matthew 5:13-16).

The balance is to study theology but to obey.  Obedience to the Word that the Holy Spirit teaches us is the best way, the disciple’s way.  Jesus, no doubt, was the greatest theologian ever to live since He was God incarnate (John 1:14).  Yet the Word of God in flesh (John 1:1) spent time with normal men and He taught them using normal means.  Jesus could have taught His disciples the attributes of God (and we should study that) but instead He often taught them about practical obedience to Himself (Matthew 7:24-27).  Obviously, all of Scripture is breathed out by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and Jesus gave us theology in the New Testament letters but Jesus Himself focused on helping His own disciples obey the gospel more than upon theologically explaining it.

I pray that I have that balance.  Let me teach theology but let me also teach people how to obey the gospel by the grace of God that He has given us in His Son (Titus 2:11-14).  We are saved to obey (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Written by The Seeking Disciple

09/22/2013 at 10:40 AM

The Idolatry of Doctrine

Doctrine is important.  Scripture is clear about this.  Last night my little boys and I were studying from John 7 and here Jesus makes this statement about doctrine in John 7:16-18 (NKJV):

16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

Adam Clarke wrote about verse 17:

I will give you a sure rule by which ye may judge of my doctrine: If you really wish to do the will of God, begin the practice of it; and take my doctrine, and apply it to all that you know God requires of man; and if you find one of my precepts contrary to the nature, perfections, and glory of God, or to the present or eternal welfare of men, then ye shall be at liberty to assert that my doctrine is human and erroneous, and God has not sent me. But if, on the contrary, ye find that the sum and substance of my preaching is, That men shall love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbour as themselves; and that this doctrine must bring glory to God in the highest, while it produces peace and good will among men; then acknowledge that God has visited you, and receive me as the Messiah promised to your fathers.

Doctrine must glorify God.  Doctrine must focus on the work of the Lord Jesus.

In the Church of Jesus Christ, doctrine is vital.  We read in Acts 2:42 that the disciples saved on the day of Pentecost continued steadfastly in the Apostle’s doctrine.  Ephesians 4:14 says that the purpose of Bible teachers is to help the children of God mature and not be confused by false teachings but to remain faithful to sound doctrine.  1 Timothy 1:3 tells Timothy to charge some that they teach no other doctrine.  1 Timothy 4:1 warns that the time will come when people will turn away from the faith and turn to teaching doctrines of demons.  But Timothy is to remain in faithful doctrine (1 Timothy 4:6) and he is to be faithful in teaching sound doctrine (1 Timothy 4:13) for in so doing he will save both himself and others as well (1 Timothy 4:16).  Paul praises elders who are teaching sound doctrine (1 Timothy 5:17) and he tells slaves to be faithful that the doctrine of God might be praised (1 Timothy 6:1).  Paul’s warning in 1 Timothy 6:3-5 (NKJV) is worth reading:

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that all of Scripture is breathed out by God and useful for doctrine.  2 Timothy 4:3-4 warns that a time will come (and has come since) when people will not endure sound doctrine but will turn aside to myths.

I could go on and on.  Sound doctrine is vital.  It is important for the Church to study sound doctrine and to abide in the Word of God.  We need to be faithful in Bible study and in sound exegesis.  We need faithful Bible teachers who will stand up and teach the truth of God without fear of men (Proverbs 1:7).  Sound doctrine is vital.  It is possible to believe in lies and a false christ (Matthew 24:24).  2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 says that when people abide in sin and do not love the truth, at times, God allows a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.  In essence, sincerity is not enough to be saved.  We must have faith in one true God to be saved.  I recently heard a prominent preacher say that Rahab the harlot (Hebrews 11:31) was saved and he was sure that she was not sound in doctrine.  He also pointed to Acts 16:30-34 with the pagan jailer as another example of poor doctrine in which a person was saved.  His point: God saves those who believe and not theologians.  He went on to say that he hoped that those in cults would be saved despite poor theology.  For instance, he went on to say that he hoped Jehovah’s Witnesses would be saved despite their false teachings.  He believes that the JW’s teach salvation by faith in Christ.

There are many problems with his views.  First, we don’t know the doctrinal understanding of either Rahab or the Philippian jailer.  Yet we do know that the Israelites were worshiping the one true God in Joshua 2.  In fact, Rahab acknowledges the authority of Yahweh in Joshua 2:9 by name.  Rahab was not seeking the false pagan gods of her culture but the one true God in Yahweh.  The same is true of the Apostles in Acts 16.  Paul was clearly preaching the true God (Romans 1:16-17) and this gospel would set sinners free.  Further, Paul makes it clear in Acts 16:31 that it is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who saves (John 14:6).  Paul was not praising the jailer for his faith in the false gods of Rome but he is preaching the true and living God in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1).

Now my point here is not to simply acknowledge true doctrine.  I do believe that true doctrine is vital to the health of the Church and to salvation of the lost.  We can preach false christs.  We can preach another gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).  We must be careful to abide in the teachings of Jesus (John 15:1-11; 1 John 4:1-6).

That said, I believe that we can abide in faithful doctrine and yet love doctrine above loving Christ.  We must be careful to not fall in love with teachings about Jesus Christ while not loving the person of Christ.  The person of Christ is our salvation.  Salvation is not found in the teachings about Jesus as much as they are found in the person of Jesus.  Jesus is alive.  He is not dead.  Jesus is not confined to a book.  Jesus is the risen Savior.  Certainly we must study His Word that He has given us to know Him more and more but the knowledge of His Word is to know Him and not merely about Him.  We can know about Jesus while not knowing Jesus.  It is possible to sit week after week under sound doctrine and still be lost.  We can think we are saved because we think that salvation comes through knowledge about Jesus.  This is not true.  James 2:19 makes it clear that demons acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus but they are not saved.  Demons acknowledge sound doctrine about Jesus.  They acknowledge He is God.  They acknowledge He is Lord of lords.  Yet demons are not saved.

James 2:14-26 is important here because it is not enough, writes James the Apostle, to acknowledge the truth of God.  We must allow the truth of Jesus to transform us.  I know of people who would claim Christ.  They would acknowledge that we are justified by faith.  They would acknowledge that the Bible is the Word of God and that Christ alone saves.  Yet they abide in sin (1 John 3:4-9).  They are not saved from the wrath to come (Romans 5:9).  By their life, they testify that Jesus is not Lord of their lives (Luke 6:46-49; Titus 1:16; 1 John 2:3-6).  They are not saved at all.  They would claim salvation but they would not be able to point to what they are saved from.  They are not saved from God.  They are not saved from sin.  They are not saved from the bondage of the devil.  They are not saved from the fear of death.

True salvation is not simply doctrine.  To love doctrine above Jesus would be idolatry.  It is possible to love Arminius or Calvin or Edwards or Spurgeon above Jesus.  Jesus must be our focus.  Is the gospel of the Lord Jesus that saves me and not any flesh (John 1:12-13).  Jesus is our salvation (Romans 3:22-27).  Jesus shed His blood for our salvation (Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 1:7) and His blood alone is able to cleanse us from sin (1 John 1:7).  His blood frees us and empowers us to be kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:5-6).  The truth of the gospel is contained in the powerful words of John 3:16.  Our love should be for sound doctrine but even more for the person of the Lord Jesus who is alive and reigns forever.  May our love and devotion be to Him always and not to our theological systems.  I assure you that there will be many theologians in hell (Matthew 7:21-23) but the true saints of God are those who love Jesus and obey Him as Lord (Revelation 14:4).

How Should We Study Systematic Theology?

In his Systematic Theology book, Dr. Wayne Grudem offers the following points for disciples when studying systematic theology.  I believe they are worth repeating here.

1.  We Should Study Systematic Theology With Prayer (Psalm 119:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:17-19).

2.  We Should Study Systematic Theology With Humility (1 Corinthians 8:1; James 1:19-20; 3:13, 17-18; 1 Peter 5:5).

3.  We Should Study Systematic Theology With Reason (Psalm 119:160; Mark 12:30).

4.  We Should Study Systematic Theology With Help From Others (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11-16).

5.  We Should Study Systematic Theology by Collecting and Understanding All the Relevant Passages of Scripture on Any Topic (John 1:1-3).

6.  We Should Study Systematic Theology With Rejoicing and Praise (Deuteronomy 6:5; Psalm 19:14; 119:103, 111, 162; Romans 11:33-36)

Conclusion

I have met disciples who claimed that systematic theology was boring and a waste of time.  They would turn around and teach on prayer or any other subject and use the very methods they deplore by searching the Scriptures to see what God has revealed to us about prayer or the given subject.  We all do systematic theology whether we are a seasoned, educated disciple to the young disciple just baptized.  When you read your Bible and seek to know God’s ways, you are putting together various passages not at random but in order to know God and to hear His voice (Hebrews 12:25).  We should not view theology as boring but as that which sustains us when trials come our way (James 1:2-4).

Written by The Seeking Disciple

03/17/2012 at 5:00 PM

Posted in Theology

Tagged with ,

>Arminius on How To Teach Theology

>DISPUTATION II

ON THE MANNER IN WHICH THEOLOGY MUST BE TAUGHT

I. It has long been a maxim with those philosophers who are the masters of method and order, that the theoretical sciences ought to be delivered in a synthetical order, but the practical in an analytical order, on which account, and because theology is a practical science, it follows that it must be treated according to the analytical method.

II. Our discussion of this doctrine must therefore commence with its end, about which we must previously treat, with much brevity, both on its nature or what it is, and its qualities; we must then teach, throughout the entire discourse, the means for attaining the end, to which the obtaining of the end must be subjoined, and, at this, the whole discussion must terminate.

III. For, according to this order, not only the whole doctrine itself, but likewise all its parts, will be treated from its principal end, and each article will obtain that place which belongs to it according to the principal relation which it has to its total and to the end of the whole.

IV. But though we are easily satisfied with all treatises in which the body of divinity is explained, provided they agree according to the truth, at least in the chief and fundamental things, with the Scripture itself; and though we willingly give to all of them praise and commendation; yet, if on account only of inquiry into the order, and for the sake of treating the subject with greater accuracy, we may be allowed to explain what are our views and wishes.

V. In the first place, the order in which the theology ascribed to God, and to the actions of God, is treated, seems to be inconvenient. Neither are we pleased with the division of theology into the pathological, and the therapeutic after a preface of the doctrine about the principles, the end and the efficient; nor with that, how accommodating soever it may be, in appearance, in which, after premising as its principles the word of God, and God himself, as the causes of our salvation, and therefore the works and effects of God, and man who is its subject is placed as a part of it. So neither do we receive satisfaction from the partition of theological science into the knowledge of God and of man; nor from that by which theology is said to exercise itself about God and the church; nor that by which it is previously determined that we must treat about God, the motion of a rational creature to him, and about Christ; nor does that which prescribes us to a discourse about God, the creatures, and principally about man and his fall, about his reparation through Christ, and about the sacraments and a future life.

Written by The Seeking Disciple

06/19/2011 at 1:53 PM

>Arminius on the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ

>DISPUTATION XXXIV

ON THE PERSON OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

I. Because our Lord Jesus Christ is the secondary object of the Christian religion, we must further treat on him, as such, in a few disputations. But we account it necessary, in the first place, to consider the person, of what kind he is, in himself.

II. We say that this person is the Son of God and the son of man, consisting of two natures, the divine and the human, inseparably united without mixture or confusion, not only according to habitude or indwelling, but likewise by that union which the ancients have correctly denominated hypostatical.

III. He has the same nature with the Father, by internal and external communication.

IV. He has his human nature from the virgin Mary through the operation of the Holy Spirit, who came upon her and overshadowed her by fecundating her seed, so that from it the promised Messiah should, in a supernatural manner, be born.

V. But, according to his human nature, he consists of a body truly organic, and of a soul truly human which quickened or animated his body. In this, he is similar to other persons or human beings, as well as in all the essential and natural properties both of body and soul.

VI. From this personal union arises a communication of forms or properties; such communication, however, was not real, as though some things which are proper to the divine nature were effused into the human nature; but it was verbal, yet it rested on the truth of this union, and intimated the closest conjunction of both the natures.

COROLLARY

The word autoqeov “very God,” so far as it signifies that the Son of God has the divine essence from himself, cannot be ascribed to the Son of God, according to the Scriptures and the sentiments of the Greek and Latin churches.

Note: Here Arminius gives an orthodox view of the Lord Jesus Christ that is standard for all disciples of Jesus.  He exalts Jesus as very God and very man, the perfect Son of God (John 1:1, 14, 18).  The work of Jesus alone saves sinners (John 19:30; Hebrews 10:10, 14) and without His blood, we cannot be saved (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:22).  Salvation is found in the person of Jesus (Acts 4:12) and through His blood that He shed on the cross (Revelation 1:5-6; 5:9-10).  

Written by The Seeking Disciple

01/26/2011 at 10:35 AM

Arminius on How to Teach Theology

DISPUTATION II

ON THE MANNER IN WHICH THEOLOGY MUST BE TAUGHT

I. It has long been a maxim with those philosophers who are the masters of method and order, that the theoretical sciences ought to be delivered in a synthetical order, but the practical in an analytical order, on which account, and because theology is a practical science, it follows that it must be treated according to the analytical method.

II. Our discussion of this doctrine must therefore commence with its end, about which we must previously treat, with much brevity, both on its nature or what it is, and its qualities; we must then teach, throughout the entire discourse, the means for attaining the end, to which the obtaining of the end must be subjoined, and, at this, the whole discussion must terminate.

III. For, according to this order, not only the whole doctrine itself, but likewise all its parts, will be treated from its principal end, and each article will obtain that place which belongs to it according to the principal relation which it has to its total and to the end of the whole.

IV. But though we are easily satisfied with all treatises in which the body of divinity is explained, provided they agree according to the truth, at least in the chief and fundamental things, with the Scripture itself; and though we willingly give to all of them praise and commendation; yet, if on account only of inquiry into the order, and for the sake of treating the subject with greater accuracy, we may be allowed to explain what are our views and wishes.

V. In the first place, the order in which the theology ascribed to God, and to the actions of God, is treated, seems to be inconvenient. Neither are we pleased with the division of theology into the pathological, and the therapeutic after a preface of the doctrine about the principles, the end and the efficient; nor with that, how accommodating soever it may be, in appearance, in which, after premising as its principles the word of God, and God himself, as the causes of our salvation, and therefore the works and effects of God, and man who is its subject is placed as a part of it. So neither do we receive satisfaction from the partition of theological science into the knowledge of God and of man; nor from that by which theology is said to exercise itself about God and the church; nor that by which it is previously determined that we must treat about God, the motion of a rational creature to him, and about Christ; nor does that which prescribes us to a discourse about God, the creatures, and principally about man and his fall, about his reparation through Christ, and about the sacraments and a future life.

Theology on fire is what we most need today.  We have so many books, so many Bibles, so many churches, so much information but we have little actual hearing of the Word of God.  Amos 8:11 says that God prophesied to Israel that there would be a famine of “hearing” the word of the Lord.  This is our case today.  We have the Word of God all around us but little hearing of Him.  We hear Bible teachers about God’s Word.  We hear songs (well sometimes) about God’s Word.  We have Bible churches and Bible colleges.  But what we don’t have are ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church (Revelation 2:17).  Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice (John 10:27-29) and He said that if are not His, we can’t hear His voice (John 8:47).  


My prayer to God is that He would, like the Methodists of old, would set our hearts and minds on fire for Jesus.  The reason that the Methodists, with their biblical Arminianism and passion for God, were the dominant evangelical movement of the 19th century was because they had ears to hear what the Spirit was saying to His Church (Acts 13:2).  I pray that today’s Arminians, with a zeal for God, His truth, and holiness would once again turn the world upside down with the gospel (Acts 17:6).  

Written by The Seeking Disciple

01/10/2011 at 11:28 PM

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